The Black Curtain Club
Weird mysteries, creepy stories, chaotic 2 a.m. conversations, and all the things your afraid to ask your friend - that’s what you’ll find at The Black Curtain Club.
The Black Curtain Club
Cheltenham Haunting: A Victorian England Ghost Tale
Have you ever wondered what happens when scientific inquiry meets the paranormal? Step back to Victorian England where one of history's most meticulously documented hauntings unfolded in a seemingly ordinary home.
The Cheltenham Ghost case stands apart from typical ghost stories—not because of terror or violence, but due to the extraordinary level of documentation by a brilliant 19-year-old woman named Rosina Despard. When her family moved into Garden Reach in 1882, they encountered more than just a beautiful home. Mysterious footsteps echoed through empty hallways before a silent woman dressed in widow's black began appearing throughout the house, following the same paths night after night, even attempting to take ghostly naps on beds.
Join us as we explore this fascinating case where the veil between worlds seemed to thin, allowing a persistent visitor to continue her silent routine long after death. Listen now and discover why belief isn't always about proof, but about that unmistakable feeling when the air shifts and you simply know you're not alone.
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Rosa once saw the ghost enter a room and I found this funny and enter a room and lie down on a bed Like she was like literally just trying to take a nap in the middle of eternity, and I read the ghost. Yeah, like the ghost like lay down in the bed, like she was trying to take a nap and and I thought you know, like same honestly relatable just we get it.
Speaker 2:We get it, man. I've been haunting all day, man. My little, my little wisps is tired like man.
Speaker 1:Before we begin today's episode, we would like to share a quick disclaimer. The views, opinions and statements expressed by the hosts and guests on this podcast are their own personal views and are provided in their own capacity. All content is editorial, opinion-based and intended for entertainment purposes only. Listener discretion is advised. Welcome back to the Black Carton Club, and on this episode we're going to tug at the threads of the eerie. Today I have a story that delves into the paranormal, and to help me, along with this rather quaint tale, is my co-host, kyle, and you, of course, our listeners, to lean in and hear a story where the veil between worlds thins. So, kyle, first, how are you doing?
Speaker 2:well, ask me that like midway, and then at the end of this one and see how that goes. But for right now, we chilling.
Speaker 1:Okay, are you ready for ghosts? And like, where do you stand on the paranormal? Is this a world that you're very familiar with?
Speaker 2:usually if they're below me, I try to stand on their heads to kind of keep them down. That's usually my where I stand with them. Um, I like ghost movies like 13 ghosts, casper, um shit like that. I'm all for that.
Speaker 2:Um, the band goes chef, kiss, love them, yeah, absolutely, but like but on a kind of about like I would I like to think when it comes to I don't want to say spooky stuff, because I freaking love spooky stuff, but certain things I'm open to. The things that are hard to explain or difficult to explain, I like to think. I have an open mind, but very few things. Am I 100% sold on or 100% not sold on? So, like I said, ghosts most likely, but I haven't seen enough damning evidence to be like absolutely.
Speaker 1:Okay, so you've never like gone on a ghost hunt, done any paranormal investigations, never experienced anything weird I mean Closest thing I've done to a ghost hunt done any paranormal investigations never experienced anything weird, I mean closest thing I've done to a ghost hunt.
Speaker 2:Oh, I just experienced plenty of weirds, but we ain't talking about that. Closest thing I've done to a ghost hunt was, uh, I think I went to three stores to get their album prequel, like, so I hunted for one of their seats.
Speaker 1:That's the closest thing I have to a ghost hunt okay fucking sold out everywhere, man and I know we've talked briefly about, like, paranormal shows. You've you've seen a few, but you know they're highly dramatized. It's, it's you know it's hard to believe some of the things.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, so okay, yeah the yeah, the guy who says that, oh, there's definitely a ghost here because it's cold in alaska in in January with the windows open at night Like get fucked, dude, come on, no shit, it's cold.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and the sad thing is, I think a lot of those shows they both did a lot of good bringing the paranormal into like everyday conversation. They also did a lot of damage because some there are some shows and I'm going to not say the shows, but some of them have been proven to like fake stuff and, um like one even went down to the? Um haunted prison that's uh in moundsville, west virginia, and they are never allowed to come back because they literally went and spray painted like shadows on walls and defaced the property just um for for the show. Yeah, yeah they're never allowed back.
Speaker 1:Oh, dick move, dick move and I love it I love it so much and I'm missing a scared gene Like I just don't get scared at stuff like this, so it's a fascinating topic.
Speaker 2:You're probably more curious. I would say it sparks your curiosity more than instills fear.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:Yes, which is pretty dope. I get that. I understand that In kind of a weird effed up way. I'm like that with with like gore in movies. I kind of when I watched like like gory, you know monster movies or you know slasher flicks and crap like that. I'm watching it more of like, oh, that's very good makeup, or oh, that's like way overdone. Everyone is like throwing up and like running for the hills or whatever, and I'm like, hmm, interesting.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like how did they do that? How'd they do that practical effect?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I get you Corn syrup, same thing they use in Carrie.
Speaker 1:Yeah and Cujo, all right. So today I'm going to take you back to Victorian England and we're going to unravel a chilling yet strangely elegant tale of one of England's most famous hauntings and one of the first, most well-documented cases in England's history. So I know like you're a history buff, so I thought this was like the perfect case for you to hear, because it has a lot of, like you know, history stuff in it and it's just really it's a compelling story.
Speaker 1:So it sounds like it's Queen Elizabeth's coronation, so yeah, so this is a story of the Cheltenham ghost is a story of the cheltenham ghost and if I did not, pronounce that right.
Speaker 2:People in the uk, please don't come for my head. Well, I'm pretty sure that. Well, first off, if you're making a like guillotine joke, that was the french one. Two, uh, I'm gonna be worried about the people in the uk. I'd be worried about the ghost you just defended.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly. So all right, Picture it.
Speaker 2:Cheltenham, england, 1882. Picture this Sicily 1923. I was waiting for a Golden Girls there Proceed. Picture this Sicily 1935.
Speaker 1:Shit All right. So we have a well-to-do family, the Despards, and they move into a house called Garden Reach on Pitville Circus Road. It's a lovely home, plenty of rooms, lots of sunlight and apparently like one resident who refused to move on. So the house is a square. It's a very unassuming structure. It was built around 1860 on land that used to be a market garden, so hence the name Garden Reach, and according to all reports it was a house that was in good repair no rats, no owls, just a simple haunting. You know, the usual stuff.
Speaker 1:Yeah, simple, simple stuff, yeah. So I want to get into a little bit of the history of the house because, depending on who you talk to, it either plays a role into what happened or it does not. But I'm still going to go through it and I'm going to say a name. I'm going to say this gentleman's name one time I'll let you get your giggles out, and then I'm not going to say the last name again.
Speaker 2:Okay, oh, God, I'm so excited right now. Hold on, okay.
Speaker 1:Okay, so it was first owned by Henry Swinho.
Speaker 2:That's not as bad as it. That's a great name but it's not I was waiting for, like Gigglecock or something like that, I don't know.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:That's what I was waiting for.
Speaker 1:I'm not sure if it's Swineho or Swinho.
Speaker 2:Swineho.
Speaker 1:We're going with swine home yeah, so anyway, henry was a solicitor from calcutta and his first wife, elizabeth, passed away. While they lived in this home, and henry never recovered from his first wife's death, he began drinking and he eventually remarried a woman named Imogen Hutchins, and let's just say, things did not get any better. They fought Like they fought a lot.
Speaker 2:Oh.
Speaker 1:So they fought about her drinking. They fought about his drinking drinking. They fought about the upbringing of the children. They even fought about jewelry from his first wife because, like, really nothing says happy marriage, like arguing over heirlooms and hiding sapphires under floorboards, which that's exactly what he did. Like he took all of her possessions and hid them under the floorboards, which that's exactly what he did.
Speaker 2:Like he took all of her possessions and hid them under the floorboards. Damn.
Speaker 1:Okay, yeah. First off.
Speaker 2:Add song title.
Speaker 1:So eventually Henry and Imogen separated in 1876. Interestingly, henry would die a few months later in that very house, in a small front sitting room, of dipsomania and intervening sub gastritis which is a fancy way of saying alcoholism and stomach issues.
Speaker 2:Jesus, like, like, yeah, you know what? Why can't you just say that Jesus?
Speaker 1:So between when Henry was in the house and the desk bards moved into the house there was some ownership between for short periods of time, like it would sit empty for a while. People would live there, sublet it for a while in any way. In April of 1882, captain Despard and his large family seven children moved in. Just a footnote, I'm going to talk about a document later on and in this document they refer to this family as the Mortons. So in some of the documents they're referred to as the Morton family but the real name is Despard, just to clear that up.
Speaker 1:Among the seven children was 19-year-old Rosina and they called her Rosa and she became the primary witness to the strange events that would come. And you can think of her as kind of like this Victorian version of a paranormal blogger. And this girl was a very smart cookie. Just a kind of a footnote on her, rosa would go on to become the 23rd woman in England's history to graduate with a medical. I said she's a very smart cookie and she really looked at all of these events from like a very investigative and scientific-ish lens right from the very beginning, just because of who she was as a person.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:So, as all good things start out, it all began with footsteps. You know, it's like the classic opening of any decent haunting footsteps in empty hallways, doors opening and closing, no one there. But things escalated when members of the family and guests and neighbors and dogs began seeing a woman, and this woman always wore black, her face was veiled. She moved silently and deliberately, always following the same path, through the drawing room down the stairs, never speaking, never really reacting We'll get to that in a little bit but she just kind of like glided around the house like some kind of judgmental Roomba. And so the first sightings of this woman in black came in June.
Speaker 1:Immediately, rosa started this very detailed journal and so she writes. On opening the door, I saw no one. But on going a few steps along the passage, I saw the figure of a tall lady dressed in black standing at the head of the stairs, dressed in black standing at the head of the stairs. So she followed the figure, but her candle burned out and she zoomed it back to her room. She was unsure of what she had actually had witnessed. Um, and you know I will say in her defense nothing will help you sleep like seeing a victorian ghost in the stairs and then losing your only source of light. So, yeah, right. So over the next two years she saw this woman multiple times and it was always the same.
Speaker 1:So Rosa wrote this description a tall lady dressed in black of soft woolen material. The face was hidden in a handkerchief, held in the right hand, a widow's cuff was visible on both wrists. The whole impression was that of a lady in widow's weeds. Do you know what widow's weeds are? No, okay, I didn't think so. This was new for me too, so I looked it up. The term widow's weeds refers to black clothing traditionally worn by widows in mourning, particularly in the Victorian era. The garments were part of a strict etiquette of mourning that dictated both behavior and appearance following the death of a husband. The term weeds itself comes from the old English word wade, meaning garment or clothing, and has been used since the late 1500s to describe these mourning attire. So now you've learned something.
Speaker 2:And knowing is half the battle.
Speaker 1:Right, I just thought it was interesting. I've never heard the term widow's weeds before yeah, no, I was the I.
Speaker 2:I could have swore I was assuming it was gonna be like I don't know, some type of like actual, like weed, like from like in like a swamp area, like a marshy area you know what I'm talking about. Like all this kind of just like those are like widow's weeds and so she, I'm picturing like this you said that I'm picturing this kind of like monstrous, looking like water hag or something like that. I'm like oh yeah, that's terrifying and it's like no, it's just black clothes.
Speaker 2:I was like, oh, so literally like any yeah, so like any kid like between the ages of like 14 and like 17 that had one argument with their parents, got it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly so. Rosa, you know we've talked about she was very sharp and observant and she began keeping detailed notes. And when I say detailed, detailed, she detailed, like when they saw the ghost, what she was wearing, how she moved, who witnessed it, and in total, over 20 people saw this ghost over the years and their descriptions were eerily consistent. I just wanted to walk you through a couple of the encounters that happened, just to kind of give you a sense of what everyone was dealing with with this woman in black, rosa once saw the ghost enter a room and I found this funny and enter a room and lie down on a bed Like she was like literally just trying to take a nap in the middle of eternity, and I read that yeah, like the ghost like lay down in the bed like she was trying to take a nap, and and I thought you, yeah, like the ghost like laid down in the bed like she was trying to take a nap, and I thought you know, like same honestly relatable.
Speaker 2:We get it. We get it, man. I've been haunting all day, man. My little wisps is tired Like man.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So another time a guest chased the ghost down the stairs, thinking it was a real person, but she vanished before reaching the door, which I also got tickled at, because it was literally like me, an introvert at a party. Yeah, a vanish very quickly.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, Smoke bomb.
Speaker 1:Yeah, wasn't she here. Yeah, she gone.
Speaker 2:Oh, she gone.
Speaker 1:So one of her younger brothers and his friend saw this woman crying inside the drawing room window and they ran inside. But then the room was empty. And then on one occasion, Rosa finally spoke to the ghost. Now, this is, this is wild, Rosa wrote in her notes. She came past me and walked to the sofa and stood there. So I went up to her and asked her if I could help her. She moved and I thought she was going to speak, but she only gave a slight gasp and moved towards the door. She seemed as if she were quite unable to speak. So I found that very interesting.
Speaker 1:That, you know, because there are these types of hauntings where the entity is just on this loop, it's like they left an impression and it's just this thing that loops back and forth, back and forth, back and forth. But what I found interesting here is that there was a little bit of good interaction there. She went up to the ghost, she spoke, the ghost kind of acknowledged her and it was like she was maybe trying to speak or she was probably spooked herself. Like you know, it's just one of those things where, you know, the question is, the veil gets so thin. Was this, was this like two dimensions, two different dimensions, two different time periods passing each other. You know can we?
Speaker 2:can we backpedal it for a second there?
Speaker 1:Sure.
Speaker 2:Like had the, had the conversation with it. You said like, maybe she were you referring to, like maybe the ghost was like spooked as well, like she was spooked by her okay.
Speaker 2:So question maybe you'd probably know it's better than these, but like, is it a thing? Or like kind of, how funny would it be if, like okay, you know how? Like we see ghosts and they're at the paranormal from another something, whatever. Do you think ghosts get spooked when they see humans? What the fuck are you doing here, man? Like you know what I mean. Like she's just doing her Victorian shit. She's just going to whatever it is and then she just sees, like you know, hank from HR, what the fuck like? What is that burrito? What the fuck's a burrito?
Speaker 1:you know I I often think about the movie. Oh yeah, that's a good one, you know where you have in that movie where the living are literally crossing paths with the departed. And like you're seeing, the experience of the ghosts from their perspective you know, okay so.
Speaker 1:I think, yeah, if you buy into the theory that sometimes parallel time periods or parallel universes or something between the space and time kind of thins and overlaps, kind of thins and overlaps, then yeah, I think it is quite possible that ghosts can sometimes be as off-put by quote-unquote the living than we are of them too.
Speaker 2:Oh, I'm off-put by the living too. Don't worry ghosts.
Speaker 1:I get it. Yeah, I'm really off-put by the living.
Speaker 1:I get it. I absolutely get it. So to get back to the story, by mid-1894, the sightings of this woman really peaked. Rosa wrote that I saw the figure come in at the open door, cross the room, take up a position close behind the couch where I was, and I was astonished that no one else in the room saw her, as she was so very distinct to me. So it was around that time where others started seeing her too, and when I say others like neighbors and servants. So one of the servants reported hearing soft, slow footsteps, sometimes knocks, sometimes bumps, and a cook went on record and said I've heard the footsteps before. I've seen the figure on the stairs one night when going down to the kitchen. And she goes on to give a description, and the description is identical to what Rosa wrote in her journal.
Speaker 2:Oh damn.
Speaker 1:And then the neighbors. So there was one neighbor reported seeing a woman in black weeping in their orchard and he even sent his son to check on the family. Of course no one was in the orchard. And then one evening four people saw the ghost within minutes of each other one in the drawing room, one in the garden and then two on the lawn. And like it was like, within just a span of minutes there was, like this ghost flash mob, flash mob. It's kind of fun.
Speaker 1:I just find that interesting that you know, within such a short time span four people saw the same woman in all these different locations. I just found that very intriguing. So you remember earlier I said even dogs. I want to go into. The family had a couple of dogs and they had a large retriever who stayed mostly in the kitchen or outside, and then they had a sky terrier who was allowed to kind of move around the house.
Speaker 1:And so I want to read kind of directly from Rose's journal on this one. So she says a retriever who slept in the kitchen was on several occasions found by the cook in a state of terror. He was also seen more than once coming in from the orchard thoroughly cowed and terrified. And then with the Sky Terrier, she writes. A small Sky Terrier whom we had later was allowed about the house. He usually slept on my bed and undoubtedly heard the footsteps outside the door.
Speaker 1:The dog was then suffering from an attack of rheumatism and very disinclined to move. But on hearing the footsteps that sprang up, sniffed at the door Twice, I remember seeing this dog suddenly run up to the mat at the foot of the stairs in the hall, wagging its tail and moving it back and forth in the way dogs do when expecting to be caressed. It jumped up fawning as it would do, as if a person had been standing there, but suddenly slunk away with its tail between its legs and retreated trembling under a sofa. We were all strongly under the impression that it had seen the figure. So what do you think about that, about, I mean, you have a dog, all right, and you you kind of you. You know her as well as you know yourself. If you saw your dog like kind of acting that way and there was literally nothing there, what would you think?
Speaker 2:Oh that I a million percent would believe my dog acting weird over someone. I'm just a million percent going to believe her acting weird, like something is over there. That really isn't because we know that dogs senses and eyes and whatever can. Just everything about them is so much more sensitive and so much they're tuned so differently than anyone else's and so maybe not seeing, but definitely sensing and feeling and noticing something that we don't. She doesn't see something, but maybe she does smell something, maybe she did hear something at a different frequency. That or at a different, um, just level like that that we can't pick up on. That. I have million percent believe that she could and like would go and like investigate this and look towards that or or whatever.
Speaker 1:it would be a million percent, I believe her yeah, yeah, I I found the, the, the stuff about the, the animals, to be very intriguing because, again, like you said, I think animals they're very sensitive to their environment. They have better vision, hearing, smelling, their senses are just much more attuned. So eventually the family contacted the Society for Psychical Research, which is basically a society of psychics, and these people were like the OG Ghostbusters of the late 19th century.
Speaker 1:They dispatched investigators and they took Rosa's notes very seriously and they interviewed many of the witnesses and they even conducted some experiments in the home. One of the experiments that was actually conducted by Rosa herself was putting string across the stairs, and I know that kind of sounds funny on its surface, but I want to read. This is how like detailed she was in the way she attacked this case, and that was happening in her own home.
Speaker 1:So she she writes I've several times fastened fine strings across the stairs at various heights before going to bed, but after all others have gone to their rooms. These were fastened in the following way I made small pellets of marine glue into which I inserted the ends of the cord, then stuck one pellet lightly against the wall and the other to the banister. The string being thus stretched across the stairs, they were knocked down by very slight touch and yet would not be felt by anyone passing up or down the stairs and by candlelight, could not be seen from below. They were put at various heights, from the ground, from six inches to the height of the banisters, about three feet. I've twice at least seen the figure pass through the cords, leaving them intact.
Speaker 1:So I thought, for the time period, that was a pretty remarkable experiment in the way that she thought that through. You know, like I'm gonna put this string, but I don't want to trip anybody, but I don't want people to know that it's there either. You know, in the in the fact that she knew that this, um, the string could not be seen by the candlelight, so if somebody was walking down the stairs. They would not know that it was there but, they.
Speaker 1:If it was a solid figure, it would pat. You know they would. It would take the strings down. And the fact that she saw the figure pass through the cords twice and they were left intact, I think that's pretty compelling evidence.
Speaker 2:I'll give you that yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, it's, it's, it's something, it's something.
Speaker 2:It's something. It's something it really is like it's. It's one of those things I guess I have to see it Like I would have to. I would have to, I'd have to be there. It definitely is compelling and it all makes sense, like I said, that it is a scientific approach to it. For sure, it's just. Yeah, it's like the mummy If I can see and I can touch it, then it's real. That's what it is, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So as a result of all of this, a full 21 page report was put out in 1892. That would become one of the most well-documented hauntings in British history. The sad thing is no one ever really got to the bottom of who this woman in black was. Some say it was the spirit of a woman who once lived in the house and died under very unpleasant circumstances. Some versions say she was a widow stuck in time. Some versions say it was connected to Henry and Imogen. A lot of people think that it was her that was stuck at the house after she passed away. But I think what makes this story so fascinating isn't just the ghost, it's the tone. This, this ghost. She wasn't violent, she didn't scream or throw books or try to possess anyone. She just appeared again and again like some kind of tragic rerun on a loop you know the question was she lonely, angry, just exceptionally committed to her routine?
Speaker 1:I mean, you know, we don't know. That's the thing. But I will say, what I think is also so special about this case is this was the first haunting to be extensively documented with a pretty scientific-ish lens. We had multiple witnesses, multiple years, meticulous note taking. It wasn't just folklore, it was like an early form of ghost journalism. And Rosa, she never stopped believing, even years later. She stood by every word in her journals. I think sometimes you know, belief isn't about proof, it's about the feeling you get when the air shifts, when the room kind of gets too quiet, and you just know that you're not alone. And I know that, like you, haven't officially ghost hunted but, I, can tell you being in those spaces.
Speaker 1:There is just a feeling that you get in the air where you definitely know that you're not alone.
Speaker 2:No, for sure that I can, um, that I can definitely agree with. Like, maybe that's I I'm trying to think of like a specific one that would make sense. But I've had that feeling before where, like there's some, there's something, don't know what, I don't know anything, but I'm definitely not by myself right now and like, hmm, it's almost like I can't think of anything exactly.
Speaker 1:But it's like you can feel, like it's almost like a static in the air, like the, just the, everything. It just changes the air, the frequency, the, the little, um, micro things that your body picks up on that you're not aware of. Um, your brain is processing things all the time that you're not aware of it. It just, you just know you're not alone.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I'll give you that.
Speaker 1:So yeah, just a little footnote on the home. Interestingly, the home is still stands today. So after the desk parts left, it sat vacant for five years when it was bought and the name was changed to N Holmes and it became a boys preparatory school. It opened its doors in 1898 and stayed in operation for nine years, and then it sat vacant again until 1910. So from 1910 to 1912, it was used for religious purposes by a group of nuns, and then from 1912 to 1935, it became St Anne's Nursery College, which was an organization for training nannies.
Speaker 1:Okay, and then, in the 1970s, it was used as accommodations by the diocese and then, finally, in 1973, the empty house was bought by a housing association and converted into flats apartments for us American rubes, and this is how the house remains today. So I mean, this is the uh, that's the end of my cheltenham ghost story. So what are you, what are your kind of final thoughts on this case?
Speaker 2:boo. Eh no, no, listen, like I said, there's definitely more evidence towards that than fucking. Oh, it's cold in alaska, um, so that's a more believable story. Like I said, it's definitely the um experiment with that you talked about, that's helping me lean a bit more towards okay, there's, there's a bit more weight to this um than others yeah, um, and I do, I have the uh, I have the whole pdf of the report that was put out, the 21 page report it is.
Speaker 1:It is a pretty fascinating um read because they they mainly rely on a lot of her notes, because her notes were so meticulous and scientific in their own right. They just kind of took what she had and basically went and just validated it. I can shoot it over to you if you ever want to read it. I think just historically too it's interesting because, again, it's one of the most well-documented hauntings in early history.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's for sure. I mean well-documentation definitely helped your case.
Speaker 1:Yes, absolutely so. Yeah, thanks for joining us for this paranormal episode. Just remember, you know, the next time you hear a creak in the hallways or see a flicker out of the corner of your eye, maybe don't run because it's probably just somebody reliving their favorite daily routine from the great beyond. Be sure to follow the Black Curtain Club and, if you like this tale, leave us a rating and review. It helps us find more curious souls. Leave us a rating and review. It helps us find more curious souls, and you can find us on all regular social media outlets, so give us a follow there to learn what's in store and some extra tidbits of information we run across. So until next time, stay curious and stay spooky. Bye, say bye, kyle.
Speaker 2:Peace out Cub Scouts.
